tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-283938885302784821.post5166060136366268735..comments2024-02-26T06:13:05.892-08:00Comments on Grognardling: The Scoundrel, Part 4: In Defense of Skill SystemsChristopherhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16988517412357391012noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-283938885302784821.post-62241637787472029282011-06-13T21:15:35.950-07:002011-06-13T21:15:35.950-07:00Hi Staples, I've played OD&D with no "...Hi Staples, I've played OD&D with no "Skills & Non-weapon proficiency, etc". I've played classless skill points only systems. I've played everything in between. I guess it really depends on the game I want to play. Trollsmyth really nailed it though. The way I see it, certain genres lend themselves better to having more comprehensive lists of skills (secret agents, private investigators). While some games work perfectly well with simple skill mechanics when the character archetypes are very specialized (fighters, clerics). <br /><br />Ever read 3:16-Carnage Amongst the Stars? There are only 2 stats: FA and NFA, Fighting Ability and Non-Fighting Ability. It's one of the most brilliant games I've ever played. I think D&D sits in the middle of the spectrum with Indie Story Games at one end, and % based skill systems on the other. The character sheet is the first thing I look at when I look at a new game. The more complicated the sheet, the more complicated the game.Reverend Dakhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15589927717583694031noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-283938885302784821.post-23089803858946408662011-06-12T19:57:20.141-07:002011-06-12T19:57:20.141-07:00Interesting. Trollsmyth, from what I understand, h...Interesting. Trollsmyth, from what I understand, has done some amount of messing with story games and Indie RPGs, so he probably got this idea from doing that. I hadn't made that connection because I'm really, really unfamiliar with story games.<br /><br />I like the idea of individualized skills, though I'd also consider making some background based proficiencies into automatic-success abilities. I liked having blank skill slots on the Pendragon character sheet, but hadn't thought to do the same thing until you posted this. Thanks!Christopherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16988517412357391012noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-283938885302784821.post-89954470018272682822011-06-12T19:47:48.684-07:002011-06-12T19:47:48.684-07:00More and more lately, I see less difference betwee...More and more lately, I see less difference between so called Old-school RPGs and new-school story games.<br /><br />For instance, the story games folks zeroed in on this exact principle a couple of year ago at least, with the whole idea of the Fruitful Void (I'm not saying they were the first mind).<br /><br />Fruitful void: http://www.lumpley.com/comment.php?entry=119<br /><br />Currently my house rule thinking is this: I like simplicity, and I like using attributes (or their bonuses) to make rolls on - because I see them as the core of the character... and otherwise why are they even there? Most skill systems are derivative of attributes to the point where you may as well remove one or the other.<br /><br />But I do recognize that someone can have knowledge of a field that isn't reflected by their attribute and I also see a satisfaction in allowing differing and defining traits between otherwise similar characters. Skills are good for character building because they flesh out who the person is/was.<br /><br />Combine this with the fact that no skill list can ever be complete, and I'm going to take a story-game leaf out of the book and allow players to define one or two skills each of their own. They can be anything at all as long as they support the character concept. This represents previous occupations or special training and is simply a bonus that gets applied to attribute checks when in the right context. Obviously abuse and powergaming has to be watched out for, but common sense is the best rule of thumb here.<br /><br />Right now I don't know if it will be a flat trained/untrained bonus or something that can be improved upon with time. We'll see.Danhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06011974487836242987noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-283938885302784821.post-32630908893029788812011-06-12T19:32:37.451-07:002011-06-12T19:32:37.451-07:00J.D.: That sounds both similar, in the breadth of ...J.D.: That sounds both similar, in the breadth of the skill descriptions, to what Rob Conley did in the Majestic wilderlands and, in the mechanics or improving in skills, to what I'm planning to do. I'm planning on having my skills be more specific and concrete, though; I figure I can use simple attribute checks for general stuff. Everyone being able to improve, and thieves improving faster, though, is something I really like, and am planning on including in my Scoundrel class.<br /><br />Rev. Dak: You're right, it definitely depends on what your definition of a skill system is, or "how granular the skill system is before I call it a skill system." Do you have a set point of granularity in mind? I'd be curious if there is a good simple way to categorize skill systems according to granularity. All I'm seeing right now, so far as granularity goes, is a fuzzy spectrum. Thoughts?Christopherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16988517412357391012noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-283938885302784821.post-63690296660446353312011-06-12T11:57:07.168-07:002011-06-12T11:57:07.168-07:00Thanks for this. I've been pondering, consider...Thanks for this. I've been pondering, considering and re-considering Skill Systems in OD&D (and their derivatives.) I know how I want them to be played out, in general. But I'm also aware at the same time the games themselves are ultimately skill systems. The key is how granular you want to go. In a Class/Level/Abilities based system, I want every "check" (we'll use the term check to mean anytime task resolution needs to have an element of randomness, failure &/or danger) to be based on those 3 key factors. In a "Skill Based" system, every check factors in the degrees of skills you have in each individual task. Then you have everything in between. D&D has been officially a hybrid of the two (more so in 3x than 4x) since 2e (which made it optional.)<br /><br />So what is better? Should there be a skill-system? It depends. It depends on what your definition of a skill system is, or (in my case) how granular the skill system is before I call it a skill system. <br /><br />I know what i like, what how feel like playing, and this determines the game I play.Reverend Dakhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15589927717583694031noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-283938885302784821.post-4458881923934324572011-06-12T08:07:13.631-07:002011-06-12T08:07:13.631-07:00Here's a brief explanation of the skill system...Here's a brief explanation of the skill system I implemented in my RPG books:<br /><br />There are twelve broad skills (Athletics, Civics, Craft, Diplomacy, Entertain, Knowledge, Outdoors, Medicine, Perception, Pilot, Stealth, and Trade). All skills start at "rank 1" ("untrained"), which means that any character has at least a 1 in 6 chance to do something related to that skill. Non-humans generally have a +1 racial bonus to some skill (Elves get Perception, Dwarves get Craft, Halflings get Stealth), essentially replacing (but mathematically preserving) such abilities as the elves' 2-in-6 chance to find secret doors.<br /><br />Characters also start with (3 + Int mod) skill points to buy higher ranks, and they get a new point at every odd-numbered level. The thief/rogue/expert/specialist class gets (6 + Int mod), with a new rank at every level, completely replacing thief skills. Each skill point buys one rank, and skills can be trained up to rank 5. The skill check itself is a simple matter of rolling under the rank on 1d6.<br /><br />The skills have no precise definitions. What they cover falls to the players and the referee. Anything not covered by the skill system is easily relegated to an ability check (either on 1d20 vs. the score itself, or some kind of 1d6 roll modified by the ability adjustment, like the Open Doors rules). That's about it. =)John Higginshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06522143715905888511noreply@blogger.com